of 'Bartzella '
John Simkins on yahoo!peony
The back cover of the Sept. FloraCulture International Magazine has a full page photo of Bartzella with a heading 'Paeonia by Hoff Quality First'. On the lower left is 'Golden Dreams' Var Bartzella. For more information www.hoffqualityfirst.nl. I visited the site and clicked on price and an Email note appeared and I sent it.To my questions the answer follows
"The variety is free as you know, and I also do not make the impression that we have solo rights as you see. But until now most trading was between peony lovers. I have bought the whole Dutch production from sevral growers for the > next 2 years, which is app. 700 plants. From this production I sell app. 50%, the rest I plant myself. The name Bartzella is not nice, and more important, says nothing. In many countries like Japan, China etc. is a big market, but what does 'bartzella' say? I even don't know what it means. Therefore I started to use the name 'Golden Dream'. It tells about the colour, and more, I think a yellow peony has always been the ultimate dream for peony lovers. Of course I still use 'bartzella' for the growers that know all about peonies, so that it is clear for them about which variety we speak. In the moment I have 2 plants in flower. I have treated them on a very special way and flowers in September are rare. Probably I am also going to show Golden Dream on the Hortifair Amsterdam!"
> The variety is free as you know, and I also do not make the impression that > we have solo rights as you see. But until now most trading was between peony > lovers. I have bought the whole Dutch production from sevral growers for the > next 2 years, which is app. 700 plants. From this production I sell app. > 50%, the rest I plant myself. >
> The name Bartzella is not nice, and more important, says nothing. In many > countries like Japan, China etc. is a big market, but what does 'bartzella' > say? I even don't know what it means. Therefore I started to use the name > 'Golden Dream'. It tells about the colour, and more, I think a yellow peony > has always been the ultimate dream for peony lovers. Of course I still use > 'bartzella' for the growers that know all about peonies, so that it is clear > for them about which variety we speak. > In the moment I have 2 plants in flower. I have treated them on a very > special way and flowers in September are rare. Probably I am also going to > show Golden Dream on the Hortifair Amsterdam! > Anyway, if you have more interest, please write or visit > www.hoffqualityfirst.nl . You may put this info in the chat group. It is not > secret. Thank you for writing me! > Pieter
>> ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Simkins" <jsimkins@tap.net> > To: <pieterhoff@hoffqualityfirst.nl> I thought the group might be interested in this offer. John Simkins
Dear John, thanks for the info, I would say, what he writes is complete bullshit, but I will give him the place as a synonym in my database. Carsten
Dr. James W. Waddick on yahoo!peony
Dear John and Carsten;
Add this to your synonymy: 'Garden Treasure' = 'First Dutch Yellow' which has been floating around for about a year according to Joshua S. and Don H.
This is the sort of under-handed thing that is -unfortunately- perfectly legal since neither plant is protected by a patent. Registration (and both are registered with the APS the official IRCA) is voluntary and so is abiding by the registered name.
I'll grant that "Bartzella' is not a good commercial name, but changing it and making claims amounts to some kind of thievery. The rationalization for making these changes is totally based on greed and does not advance the peony itself.
I see that the plant is listed as "Golden Dreams" var 'Bartzella' and that "Golden Dreams" is trade marked. Since he is not the originator can he even do that legally? Worse and worse.
Is this why the Dutch market gets bad marks and people grumble?
Sad state. Jim W.-- Dr. James W. Waddick
Reiner Jakubowski on yahoo!peony
Carsten, Your descriptive English is getting very good. The name Bartzella does mean something to the person who hybridized and named this plant. To change the name on his whim should be illegal. Instead of this he should find out what the name means, why it was named as such, and then put this in his marketing description of the plant. How much nicer and appropriate this would be.Reiner
Reiner Jakubowski on yahoo!peony
How about also
'High Noon' as a suffuticosa 'Goldmine" as the first truly herbaceous double yellow whose colour does not come from suffruticosa.
'Yellow Crown'and 'Yellow Emperor' as lacti-suffruticosa hybrids.
'Honey Gold' at $55.00 Canadian (and $35.00 US on some American vendor sites I checked.
These wonderful things can be seen at Brickman's Botanical Gardens site (you'll have to do a search for the address since I'm not at home right now. All this stuff comes, I'm sure' directly from the wholesaler who provides these varieties to the garden centres and nurseries.
Ditto Jim W.'s comment, but what can you do? Reiner
Joshua Scholten on yahoo!peony
Hi peony friends... i can tell you this... i know that mr pieter didn't bought the whole dutch production! Maybe he whishes to have that....
Kind regards, Joshua Scholten paionia - www.paionia.com - the netherlands
Joshua Scholten on yahoo!peony
Hi Jim, yes because of these kind of people our dutch name will have bad marks..... I hate those kind of SHARKS!! for just a couple of $$ Best regards, Joshua
Jim Obermeyer on yahoo!peony
All; Having been a grower of orchids for many years and new to the peony thing, correct me if I am wrong, but the name of the peony was given "Bartzella" and if a specific variety is being sold it should be labeled the other way around. "Bartzella, Golden Dreams" and not the other way around.Itr would not loose it's given name as the main name. At least that is what would happen in the orchid world. I thought it was a generally accepted way of naming plants, and I am not sure but usually the hybridizer names them. Correct? Jim Obermeyer
Reiner Jakubowski on yahoo!peony
And the reason it is "complete bullshit" is that Pieter is planning on showing 'Bartzella' as Golden Dream at Hortifair Amsterdam, far from the market for which he claims to have renamed. It is important to note that the name 'Golden Dream' has been trademarked. What this does is allow the inference that the plant belongs to Hoff Quality First. In a number of short years, one expects that the "var bartzella' will be dropped and the theft of the plant becomes complete. However, the way has thus been shown for anyone else desiring to take someone else's work as their own.
Renaming as 'Golden Dream' for the Chinese and Japanese markets is unnecessary. I'm sure that either English name will be meaningless to their domestic market and it will be renamed prior to distribution within their own countries. In a few years, when the Japanese and Chinese growers begin selling it back to us, it will have yet another name or two.
Finally, another interesting item from the pages of the APS Bulletin.
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June 1963, No. 169, pg. 48, in "Recommended List of Varieties" by Marvin Karrels
ORIENTAL GOLD (Japan about 1950) D. M. M. Pure lemon yellow. (This has been imported under several names, among them AUREA, GOLDEN DREAM, and the really correct Japanese name YOKIHI. Nothing definite is yet known of its species or origin.)
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This excerpt tells us a number of things.
Golden Dream is a name already taken.
North Americans are not immune from the same sort of shenanigans that Hoff Quality First are engaged in.
Through usage, most of us have come to accept 'Oriental Gold' as the true name of a variety that should probably be known as 'Yokihi', but things are never that simple since Smirnow attributes both of the names 'Aurea' and 'Yokihi' to both of the two plants he introduced and registered, the first as 'Oriental Gold' and then also 'Fan Tan', less than a year later.
Renaming of varieties for which the true name is known leads to all sorts of complications and confusion for those who are students of that plant group. For commercial enterprise it is seen as a good marketing tool.
Reiner